Friday, March 7, 2008

response to chamber study on gambling

The Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce released an independent study of Gov. Patrick's casino proposal. The study pretty much mimicked his revenue and permanent job projections. I like the two consultants that did the study but was unimpressed by the actual study. They looked at 200 studies, articles or papers on gambling and used 10 for their study. These were disproportionately from the casino industry themselves. They used mostly the same studies that the Governor used, so it is no surprise that the numbers are very close. However, I believe these numbers are flawed. (What is the definition of insanity? To do the same thing over and over again and expect a different outcome?) The attached is the email that I sent to members on this.

The Greater Boston Chamber of Commerce has released an independent report that on face value affirms the Governor’s revenue and permanent job creation figures. I believe this is an independent evaluation done by consultants with no ties to the gambling industry. However, this is also their first attempt to look at the casino issue. As such, they used studies that have been called into question in the past. I am not surprised that their numbers are close to the Governor’s own figures. They used the same underlying numbers used by the Governor’s staff from such resources as the Center For Policy Analysis at UMass Dartmouth. If we were to use these same studies to base our deliberations on, we would reach the same conclusions. However, I, and others have called these figures into question in the past and continue to question their validity. So while I believe that this is an honest attempt to reach an answer on revenue figures, I believe it is flawed and contradicts other studies available.

Second, while I question their conclusions, there has never been a question over the creation of a revenue stream from casinos. If you build them, people will spend money. However, there is a vast difference between economic development and revenue and the administration fails to realize this. Concerning revenues, one has to ask two questions:

Where does this revenue come from?

How much does it cost to get it?

On the first question, the chamber study uses their questionable data to look at recapture rates from outside of Massachusetts. These figures are not supported by studies done in other states. There is a University of Rhode Island study that indicates they are wrong on this recapture rate, and a Federal Reserve Bank study that indicates that much of the money (perhaps as much as 75%) spent at a casino is already spent in our economy. This economic redirection cannot be counted as “new” revenue as the administration has stated time and again.

On the second question, the Committee has looked at cost centers that cost the state more money in order to bring casinos into Massachusetts. These cost centers are, to name a few, costs of a gaming commission, of increased public safety, of socio-economic impact from the growth of compulsive gambling, of loss to the bottom line of the lottery, and the loss of jobs through economic shift. We will examine these more over the next few weeks.

This chamber study is silent on the loss of jobs elsewhere in our economy as money is shifted towards casinos. We have information and testimony from numerous cities and states that indicate that this shift is dramatic. The administration not only ignores this, but has stated on several occasions that casinos will grow other businesses. Sadly, this is not the case. Not only are jobs lost, we get less economic activity from our spending.

The chamber study expressed frustration at the lack of information concerning the social costs of gambling. We agree. However, we do note that regardless of the lack of studies, this number is big and we need to factor this into any deliberations on the subject.

The chamber study falls into the same trap as the administration of looking to substitute casino profits for lottery losses. The problem here is that we make more from every dollar played on lottery products than we would from casino profits. That means that far more dollars need to be played in a casino simply to run in place with losses from the lottery. This factor alone calls into question the revenue figures from casinos.

Finally, the chamber study is a static analysis of the revenue impact should we enact casino legislation. We have to look at other factors. If we go from two to five casinos in New England, what is the saturation point? If Connecticut decides to expand or increase competition in order to keep market share, what goes that do to casino success in Massachusetts? These are just a few issues, there are far more. These issues are difficult and nuanced and need to be studied.

Casino legislation is very complex. One of my frustrations is that each time we question the assumptions of the administration’s bill; we get the same sales pitch repackaged instead of backup data. Some people think that if you say something enough times, it becomes the truth. We need to be the arbiters of what is sound public policy. We need to take that seriously and we need to do so with intelligent and with information with which to back up our conclusions. Sadly, this has not happened. We cannot ignore these questions in an eagerness to rush towards increased revenues that may not be there.

43 comments:

Southview said...

Dan...It is hard for me to figure out why you are so against "CASINOS"? It can't be a moral issue because you are a great crusader for the "LOTTERY" whereas all your arguments for not having a casino also apply to the lottery! You well know that people gamble with local bookies on football games, baseball games, horse racing, and the list goes on. They also gamble with local card games...some just small friendly games and some not so small. It's fact and everyone knows it, hell even the cops and local politicians gamble, (wink,wink)!
So why not a casino? Dan...just think of the kick in the ass a convention center/casino in North Adams would have on our economy! You talk of creating good paying jobs, casinos pay their help really good, much better than a Wally-mart and they have insurance.
I think you should rethink your opposition to casinos and think of the economic benefits it would give to your constituents and the comunity. My money is on casinos!
And as "STUDIES" go, they, for the most part, are a waste of money. You can make them say whatever you want them to say...You want a real true study? Just stand on main street and ask the people what they think!

dan bosley said...

Jack, I haven't been a big booster of the lottery except to say that it is what it is, revenue that cities and towns are hooked on. In fact, in my report in 1996, I argued we should draw a box around the lottery and find a way to stop cities and towns from being reliant on it. The same social costs that we experience in the casinos are experienced in the lottery sales. Money comes disproportionately from those on the lowest income scale. The difference is that we have the lottery already and towns would scream bloody murder if we were to take it away. The lottery is a cautionary tale for us on increased gambling though. You and I are old enough to remember the start in the seventies when that little green ticket was going to pay for education. Today we have a keno game that fires off every four minutes, weekly, daily and special games and up to thirty scratch tickets out at any one time and we still pour billions into education and cities and towns cry that it’s not enough. That’s one of my objections with gambling. It is never enough and continues to increase once it is legal.
The other point I’d like to make is that this is not a moral objection for me. My committee has to decide if this is good economic policy for the state. Time and again, when we look at studies and weigh the cost of allowing casinos in the state, it has been a relatively easy call. All things being equal, a vast majority of the money spent in a casino is already spent here in the state on other things. This isn’t economic activity, but rearranging the deck chairs!
AS for a casino in North Adams or even anywhere in the Berkshires, it will never happen unless we just allow small casinos everywhere in the Commonwealth. The infrastructure is not here. We don’t have the roads, water, or services needed to place a casino here. That’s why people who want to come to Massachusetts and build a casino are looking at Palmer or other sites off of main highways.

Da Snoop said...

Mr. Bosley in reading your email I couldn't help be reminded of the run up to the Iraq war. Those in favor repeating over and over the outcome they perceived without any real data to back it up. I know the Iraq war is a far greater disaster than a casino, but I think the Pottery Barn concept also applies to the casino. As you have stated, once you legalize it, there will be no turning back if the promises do not pan out.

I can remember the long lines of traffic that used to clog our roads when the racing was over for the night at the horse track. Still, I would rather see the horse track, and OTB, come back then a casino in Berkshire County.

Anonymous said...

Dan, As a Middleboro Resident thank you for your support. We need men of your courage and character in the state government. Casino developement in Massachusetts will be a drain on all business and greatly impact our way of life.

Southview said...

Dan...Just think of the tizzy we'd be in if we didn't have the lottery! It has added a lot of monies but the shrinking dollar value and the cost of living has killed us.
I have a very hard time believing that allowing slot machines or casinos or any other sort of public gambling would be the downfall of our civilization as we know it. Standing on purely puritanical grounds, and calming gloom and doom and the fires of hell to all those that allow gambling or gamble, is counter productive in todays hard times. Singing the old warn out "Social Impact" song has been proven to be nothing more than dooms day spin by the religious zealots that think that any type of social behavior other than going to church is BAD! We have the lottery and all is as it should be, no damnation! Remember when a casino wanted to come to Adams? All you heard was how all the girls were going to become whores and the boys were going to become members of the mob.
In case you haven't noticed it Dan, the cities and towns are hooked on whatever source of revenue they can get their hands on! We are hurting out here in our small town and we need help! If a casino will help get us monies for infrastructure repair then isn't that a good thing? If a casino will bring in tourists, isn't that a good thing? If casinos create good paying jobs for the towns folk, isn't that a good thing? And if the State would allow most of the revenue to stay here, wouldn't that be a good thing?
Dan you mention the cost to bring casinos to the State. What costs? Having to add jobs in lawinforcement? And you know what we think of STUDIES"!

dan bosley said...

Again, Jack, it is not the end of civilization and this is not a moral issue. This is an issue of dollars and cents to me. Do you know what two things New Jersey, New York, Connecticut and Rhode Island have in common? They all have expanded gambling dramatically over the last decade. The other is that they have higher income, property, and sales tax than we do. This has not solved their problem.
Regarding the issue of more money to do the things we need done: most of the money that will be spent in a casino is already being spent in Massachusetts. That's not new money to do things with. And the cost of the little that we will bring back from out of state gambling is not worth what it will cost us in new services. We already have the most successful lottery in the US and some of that money will be diverted to casinos. Since we make more money per dollar spent on the lottery than at casinos, we also experience a cost here. Believe me Jack, when I started looking at this in 1996, my first reaction was, why not? Others state do it, why not us? But if you look at dollars in and dollars out, it costs us money and moreover, takes money away from other sounder investments in our infrastructure. As my sainted grandmother used to say, "If it sounds to good to be true, it probably is."
As always though, thanks for the email and looking in at my site. I appreciate the local support and may even post something nice about windmills to get Clark all worked up.

Mark Belanger said...

A bit off-topic question Dan:

I sense the stench of death rising from Patrick's casino legislation. How about outlawing Las Vegas charity nights so that the Mashpee Wampanoag can't use that loophole to try to get class 3 table games? It would be one more nail in the coffin for the Middleboro casino.

I applaud your opposition to the economic non-starter known as casinos.

carverchick said...

Dan,

Finally, a voice of reason in our government. It is nice to see that someone is breaking apart the three casino plan Patrick continues to defend. Your correct in say that repackaging the same argument doesn't make it true. Same holds for the Mashpee Wampanoag casino proposal in Middleboro. We are constantly told that casinos are inevitable when we know they are not. How disappointing that our Governor is using scare tactics to push his agenda by saying the tribe will build a casino and there is nothing we can do about it. You have obviously done your homework as evidenced by your inevitability memo. Thank you for seeing through Patrick's lies and half-truths and educating our government on it.

Anonymous said...

Rep. Bosley,
Thanks for always being there to set the record straight about the myths of casino's, especially tribal ones. Hopefully your voice and the truth about casino's will be heard and understood come voting time. It's important to focus on "slots" in general, and what legalizing them will do to boost casino's in Massachusetts. I have a new found respect for politics, now that I realise there are some "stand up" guys and gals on the hill. Thanks again.

Raymond Tolosko said...

Rep Bosley,

You are a true leader; undeterred by the influence of others. Stand your ground. You know you are right that casinos will be bad for Ma. It's plain common sense! Unfortunately, our governor has lost his and so has the BOS of Middleboro.

Keep up the great work. You have a lot of supporters behind you!

Anonymous said...

I live in Middleboro also, and I too have to thank you for your leadship.

Ourtown government and many voters were feared into vote yes on the casino agreement or get nothing.

Oh, and the letter that was sent from the tribe was signed by a convicted rapeist.

This deal stinks, and so do casinos.

NO CASINO

Anonymous said...

The moral/religious argument is just a smoke screen. When a pro casino person starts to look at the numbers their numbers always seem to get fuzzy.

Do the Massachussetts Reps think that they can script a better casino plan then CT, NJ, and NV? Haven't these states had casinos for a long time and plenty of time to correct their previous errors?

Carl said...

Thank you Mr. Bosley for your continued level-headed approach with the casino issue. As a Lakeville resident it is of an even greater concern with nothing from the tribe to us. We see what casinos have done to other states and it should be obvious. But somehow the blind are being led by the blind and heading for a pit. Thank you for your work. We are behind you all the way.

Anonymous said...

Jesus you all sound like a bunch of Babies!

What are the altenative's your'e all providing Nothing.

Im not a Scientist, Are you, Bio is not going to help anyone.

I keep hearing its going to take money from Locals.

What about the money going to CT and RI 4 Billion last year.

Thats alot of local money take that back.

Knock it off and Vote Yes on this!

Michael Quish Raynham MA 02767

Steph Bose said...

whoahh Mr. popular.

Another point i'd like to add. Whenever casinos are put into a city or town, they town becomes ugly and run down. I don't want our pretty state to become ugly.

This sounds vain.. but it is another reason why we don't need a casino.

Also, crime goes up, more state money has to be put into social services and addiction centers and homelessness goes up. I don't think its anyone being a "cry baby" if these are the facts.

Just go to Mohegan Sun and drive past the big pretty lights and go into the town. Its loaded with poverty and run down buildings. Obviously, they didn't get the memo that they were supposed to get the money from the casino.

Ok. im done.. i have to go to class. :o)

Anonymous said...

Steph,

I need to see this, So called dump of a town your talking about.

I fish all the time down Norwich!

Visit Mystic, stationed at New London Sub Base for 3 years and I do tours down there.

I guess if I drive around looking for run down areas I can find them out your way too.

Oh wait a minute is that those run down areas of Boston or CT that are there already that you suburbanites point too.

I have one argument Gambling has been around for as long as me!

Its not about a casino for me.

Its about a 1500 room hotel water park golf etc! A destination resort.

If the effects are coming from the casinos already, Why are we not getting mitigation from CT.

Oh its called get yours.

By that I mean take that revenue back fron RI CT.

Jeez they just built there 3rd one down there.

My industry has there convention in CT.

Wouldnt that be nice right here at Home.

1 resort! compromise, The Tribe in Middleboro deserves theres.

Slots at the track for quick revenue.

Then We see how it goes.

Then decide if we want a 3 casino package.

Lets bring some industry to the small guy.

Whats the alternative another Dunkin Dougnuts.

Raynham

Anonymous said...

By the way!

Who says these are the facts.

Not Pro Casino people.

someones not telling the real facts here.

Anonymous said...

Also, crime goes up, more state money has to be put into social services and addiction centers and homelessness goes up. I don't think its anyone being a "cry baby" if these are the facts.

Southview said...

Wow Dan...You sure have stirred up a hornets nest! Hay... I have an idea? Put it on the ballot and let the people decide, that would probably end it!

Anonymous said...

Dear Representative Bosley:

Thank you, thank you, thank you for the reasoned analysis and response to the study. I am certain that you are tired of having to reiterate the same arguments over and over, but I am deeply appreciative. State government and local governments in Massachusetts are hopelessly addicted to lottery revenue in order to function. Yet, the ultimate irony is that this wonderful revenue stream remains inadequate to its stated purposes despite being the most successful revenue stream of this type in the nation! This fact alone should make everyone who wants desperately to believe the sell investigate the matter for themselves and do a little math. THE NUMBERS DO NOT ADD UP. Replacing Opium with Heroin is simply substituting one addictive substance for another, yet Heroin was developed as. . . drum roll please... a cure for opiate addiction!

Gambling revenue, whether its generated by a state-run lottery, a PILOT payment negotiated for by contract with a sovreign entity, or via licensing and taxation of commercial facilities, is ultimately addictive, and is an unsafe, unreliable, and harmful fiscal platform upon which to build a budget.

Ross said...

Wow. Lots of folks from outside the 1st Berkshire weighing in, eh?

Dan--as you remember, I posted on this topic some time ago urging a compromise solution. It's the middle child in me, I suppose.

Actual facts on this topic are few and far between (I don't believe that most social science "studies" have much credibility), and true proof of any assertion is a long way away.

Smart planning, legislative discipline, and the ability to rise above dogma to reach compromise can help to resolve the issue.

I think there is a plan out there waiting to be found that allows the Governor to save face, give the citizens of Massachusetts a destination casino, and reap financial benefits without exacerbating social ills.

Anonymous said...

Yea! Ross,

At least you see a compromise solution.

The other alternative is just keep building DDs for the small guy!

Thanks Dan

For your time.

As you feel the pulse from this blog its a two sided issue.

Anonymous said...

Slots at the tracks and 1 trbal casino in Middleboro Ma.

Thats enough for now everyone wins.

Yea!

Raynham MA

dan bosley said...

Ross, This issue is so contentious because there really is very little middle ground. It is like being a little bit pregnant. Once we allow class three gaming, or slot machines in Massachusetts, we pretty much lose control over the issue. Look at every other state and you will find that no one has comtrolled gambling once they adopted it. That makes this such a frustrating issue for many. Even in Massachusetts, the prolific expansion of the lottery has been fueled by that drive for the next dollar.

Anonymous said...

Quote
"It is like being a little bit pregnant".

Ooooh! Dan, ya went and did it now.

I have seen some persecuted on forums for comparing casino's to a non-issue statement.

I know! I know! Its nothing but God can they twist things.

I see every woman group out there coming down on you for that statement.

Naw! You have nothing to worry about.

Your name is not MrLimo.

www.middleborocasino.com

LOL! Oh! On forums that means Im giggling to myself.

carverchick said...

Dan, you said "Ross, This issue is so contentious because there really is very little middle ground. It is like being a little bit pregnant. Once we allow class three gaming, or slot machines in Massachusetts, we pretty much lose control over the issue."

Again, I say you have obviously done your homework on this issue. There is no middle ground and once they are here, they are here forever. I think people have to have a lit bit more faith in our State and what we as citizens can accomplish without casinos. Heck, we have come this far without them, why is it suddenly so important to have them? Because of the Mashpee Wampanoags are threatening one? Please, they threatened to the town of Mashpee with a land suit years ago and they lost...Why? because Massachusetts said NO. The pequot did the same thing in Connecticut- Connecticut got scared and folded...and now they have two casinos, are dependent on slot revenue, have higer taxes than us and a higher unemployment rate. Casinos are not the answer for Massachusetts and they are not inevitable.

Anonymous said...

The baby has been born!

Dan, No Disrespect, intended.

Maybe this is why I am having a hard time understanding this issue.

I feel if You and Mr Dimasi feel this passoniate about gambling.

You should introduce legislation to abolish:
The lottery and all of it's incarnations
All the numbers games
Scratch tickets
Keno
Horse racing
Dog racing
Bingo
Las Vegas Nights

Then I would know you were serious.

To me its like saying ok! You can sell beer and wine but not liquor its all the same poision, We tax it more so someone can ingest it and go kill a kid.

We talk about addictions, ciggarettes cause nore money woes! than anything. careing for the public safety would mean outlawing Ciggs.

Why do we tax them more? Instead of just outlawing them.

Im just trying to understand why a resort with Gaming is such a big deal.

Its already right over the border I look at the revenue going out of state and we end up with the same problems, I hear others talk about.

To this day I am still confused.
The people that gamble are doing it anyway.

If the voters are 60 percent in favor of resorts.

Why! can't we just give them the jobs they are looking for.

I see resorts as Jobs for the average Joe!

There is not a lot of scientist out there that I know.

I do know there's Thousands of unemployed right now that need the jobs this will create. within months at the tracks not 10 years.

As I watch the days go by with this economy, higher costs, fuel everything businesses are closing dailey.

What are we going to do?

Southview said...

Dan...I would suggest that you and your people just simply put it on the ballot and let the people decide! After all it is the people that ultimately run the government. (I don't believe in representative government. It doesn't work, and this is a prime example!)

Ask John Barrett if he would like a Casino/Convention Center for North Adams! The Mayor would trip over himself running to Boston to sign the papers, and I will run along side him holding the Pen.

You and the anti gambling crowd are trying to use the same old unproven, and untrue scare spin that was used to try to stop the lottery. Didn't work then and I don't think it will work now.

Real simple DAN...Ask the people of the State on a ballot question if they want to allow Gambling, then allow each town to vote whether they want to allow it within their city limits or not. That is real DEMOCRACY at work allowing all the voices to be heard.

Anonymous said...

The fact of the matter is that the people of the state will mostly believe what they are told to believe. They will shrug their shoulders see that it will bring jobs and a tax relief for them and say yes. These are not informed voters. They will not be told that it will actually cost more money. They do not understand that every person in the commonwealth needs to lose around $600 dollars a year to get themselves that $200 per household tax break. Some will believe that the casino around the corner is nothing more than the next Wallmart. Sadly most won't care because it won't be anywhere near where they live. The majority may always win but, it isn't always right.

Thanks Dan for seeing through the smokescreen and telling the truth.

dan bosley said...

Jack, I don't place these things on the ballot because it is my job to work very hard to look at every bill that comes before us and vote on it based on that education and examination. Why not put everything on the ballot? When I was first elected, I was against the death penalty and have always voted against it. However, back then over 70% of the people in the state were in favor of the death penalty. I was against it because after looking into it, I found that some of the people on death row were eventually found innocent. It was not foolproof, was unfairly applied to the poor more often than the rich, and didn’t save money. But it would have passed on a referendum question. Today, a good majority of people polled are against the death penalty for all of the same reasons. When do we hold the referendum? Were people right then or now? Most issues are far more complicated than the bumper sticker campaigns that are run to promote them. That doesn’t mean that people aren’t smart enough to learn or vote on these issues. I have tremendous respect for the intelligence of the electorate, but they don’t have the time to research and discuss each of these issues. That is the reason for a representative democracy.

The proponents who want gambling in Massachusetts don't place these on the ballots because they don't win very often. Once people think these might be coming they get more serious and look into them. You are very much in a minority on wanting this in your backyard and that's what people tend to vote on.

As for the old, isn't it hypocritical to have the lottery and not want gambling? There is one big difference and it is a lesson for us as we look towards legalizing casinos. We already have the lottery and we don't have casinos. Let that be our lesson. In the mid seventies, the state started the lottery with that one green ticket that was going to pay for education. From that ticket (six days a week), we got hooked on the revenue and cities and towns asked for more and more. Most of them built in an increase every year into their budgets and demanded more once we started the lottery. So the lottery has grown from that little green ticket to expand the daily number to a seventh day, weekly drawings such as massmillions, mashcash, and the oldest, megabucks. These were then made biweekly and the big game was introduced. So we have multiple weekly drawings. We introduced keno and then shortened the time between games to four minutes! All this and there are up to 35 different scratch tickets out at any given time. Still cities and towns are screaming for more money from this. (By the way, the lottery is delivering over $935 million to cities and towns this year, which is over double what the Conn. Casinos are delivering in taxes to their state.)
What are the lessons learned from this? First, once you start a gambling venue, it continues to grow and become more important to your revenue stream. This makes you more reliant and that means that you have little control over that revenue stream. Second, it is not reliable. Our highest return to cities and towns was somewhere around $951 million (I am doing this from home and don’t have exact figures in front of me.) This year, we are appropriating $124 million to the lottery in order to level fund last year’s return. Sometimes the House doesn’t win and this makes me concerned. In my very first report to the Speaker in 1997, we didn’t have a lot of studies to go on so a lot of that report was more feelings and reactions to what I had seen as opposed to having a lot of data. However, one of the things that I did see was a report from the AG in Oregon. He cautioned against over reliance on the lottery and he was right. Now that we have it, we aren’t getting rid of it, but the lessons from the lottery means that we should be very cautious in going back for more gambling as a source of revenue.

Southview said...

Dan.....I fully understand where you are coming from and respect your sincerity and dedication to your beliefs. But, and here is where we differ, You are only one voice speaking for a lot of voices. You are not bound by any constraints from following your inner personal voice. That is why I say the Representative Form doesn't work. In this day and age, the citizen is a lot more knowledgeable as to what goes on and has at his finger tips all the tools he needs to stay informed. We have graduated far beyond the need for any one to tell us what is good for us. I just believe that now in the 21st century we should allow our representatives to present us with their research into a bill, give us the pro/con and then get outta the way and let the true government, THE PEOPLE, decide for themselves. I know it will degrade politicians from their power and influence, but maybe that is just what is needed!

Raymond Tolosko said...

This is in reply to southview's last comment;

The issue here is that the public is not completely informed or in some cases mislead (as the Middleboro residents were) as to how a casino will actually impact a community. There is such a "rush" to pass a vote or pass legislation because the big money investors deliberately DO NOT want the public to educate themselves about the impacts to the state or community.

All anyone can really do is look at how the casinos have impacted other states. The taxes in Connecticut have gone up.

If casinos are so great for a state, then why is it that Connecticut and California are forced to continuously pass legislation trying to limit casino impacts and expansion?

Anonymous said...

Jacquie
Is it not true 4 billion dollars went to Ri and CT casinos.

We in MA get nothing How much of that is MA money.

Casino Free MA said it impacts 50 miles around a casino.

So I see it we already get impacts Lets get the Jobs and Money to help our State.

What is your Plan?

Why does everybody want the work this will bring.

7-11 million dollars thats what sold the Casino in Middleroro.

They will have the best of everything!

Edward R. Quinn said...

Hi Dan
Your original comments and many of the responses are very insightful on the pro's and cons of, as well as, demonstrating the complexity of the issue. I would agree that the issue is certainly not one that is cut and dry regarding revenues vs actual costs. Yet most tax policy has a certain amount of uncertainty to it. Certainly we are seeing a debate rageing as to where a rate reaches a tipping point and actually reduces tax reciepts.
I would also like to ad that the huge majority of taxes and fees in Massachusetts are truely regressive which by definition places the majority of the tax burben on the bottom 50% of Wage earners here in Mass.
When Casino's get discussed it seems the issue of as the lottery has been a tax on the poor. Point of fact that the two most progressive taxes inheritance and capital gains have been eliminated or reduced to a point that they are no longer progressive here in Massachusetts. Yet this was done to spurr investment and expansion of our economy and thats another discussion of Tax policy that will be longer then this thread I am sure. Yet the Legislature over the last 20 years under the leadership of Republican lead message and administration forced this shift into the regressive tax as the bead rock of tax policy. Massachusetts I am sure you know is not alone the majority of States are also far more regressive then Progressive. I raise this issue because it has been said that gambling ie. Casino's are a tax on the poor well what is not under Massachusetts tax policy. So in my opinion this should be removed as a point in the discussion.
Still this discussion is Casino's and gaming, and from what I have seen Casino's themselves are evolving into family resort destinations that include gaming. To stay competitive for entertainment dollars they have expanded entertainment and ammenities to atract more then the hard core gambler but to become family oriented destinations. The days of the Las Vegas strip and The rat pack generation that stereo typically were partying hardy, drinking, smoking and gambling is a shrinking part of the Casino dollar. So the nature of Casino's have changed over time as most things do and I am certain continue to evolve to serve the public they plan to attract. Yet Casino's do due one thing very well they still attract large development dollars and investment some thing that as the housing slump/ Recession?depression continue will also continue to lag here in Massachusetts. I believe that this section of the economy is critical to the strength of the state and local city and towns to maintain the revenue streams necessary to continue to fund the ever increasing costs of Education and health care in Massachusetts. Job creation and more importantly how about retention are an important portion of our economic strenght and well being, this kind of investment in new growth is used to reduce the needed for expansion on many of the other regressive taxes here in the state.
I would like to pose one question to you for your comment and that is since Massachusetts has word for word the same law as Conn did when it lost it's case in the Federal Court of Appeals in 1993 how will we block a casino from comming into MAssachusetts and is one casino any way less of a hazard for society then 3, also since the Moheagans of Conn were recogognized the territory originally stretched right through most of Western Massachusetts how would we plan to prevent them from buying property in Massachusetts to open a second casino to protect their revenues that they would percieve lost by a Mass Casino in Middlebourough. If then we had 2 indian Casino's with no Hotel Motel tax revenue, no sales tax revenue, no meals tax revenue, No corporate income tax revenue, no property tax revenue, how would we then afford to pay the hard costs associated with the ills of gaming that would fall to local govenments and the State.
Reports do show a decrease in slot Machine revenue which would be the only revenue sharing we could enter into agreement on if they recieve federal approval for a Class III license. In my opinion unlike governement at all levels, Massachusetts needs to be Proactive on issues instead of reactive since time and time again when we try to play catch up we always seem to be left holding the short straw. For all other commenters I would agree that there is a down side to casino's Rep Bosley is correct, I just want to leead instead of follow on Casino's to make sure we cover the hard hidden costs as much as possiable and to treat Casino's like every other business and make them pay the same taxes as everyone else Regressive or not. I would have hoped not to see Casino's in Masssachusetts yet Federal law has taken that decision away from us. Thank you for your insight and research on a really tough issue but I respectfully disagree and to miss taking control of this industry from the start is to miss the opportunity to protect the people you most care about the most effectively.

What city or Town is going to accept the statement we can not give you as much for Chapter 70 this year because we have to increase Highway money and Health and human services money to offset the Casino's in MAssachusetts. I thing that is the greater damage

Raymond Tolosko said...

Mr. Quinn,

Without class 3 approval by the state, the tribal casino will only be allowed to open a class 2 facility...no money can be made by the investors with no slots. There is this fear that is spread that we have no control over the tribal casino, so the state better get ahead of the game and put the commercial casino first.

We DO have control: NO CLASS 3=NO SLOTS= NO REVENUE FOR THE TRIBAL CASINO

Edward R. Quinn said...

Dear Jacquie

I would strongly disagree with your assumptions and I offer evidence to support mineand would further suggest youn the report on NY casinos which I will quote here. This report is on the whole not in in favor of Casino's but does admit they are highly probable in NY. I would also suggest if you have access to West Law or Nexis that you do a search on Casino case federal appeals court decisions you will find 3 that rely on the same findings as the 1993 Federal Court of Appeals ruling on the Conn case. Massachusetts Law is virtually word for word please see site below. As a result the courts have upheald the issuance of Class III license witht he only negotiating point being Slots since this is not provided under Class III licenses or under the current state Law which is why I believe under the negotiation you can obtain revenue as a bargaining point with the casinos. So until I see any evidence or precident to state the opposite view you hold I would suggest your assumptions are just that.
Yet to your point there is a great article in the Bosoton Globe today March 18, 2008 that does demonstrate the hurdles the Tribe is facing by having two seperate parcels and I felt encouraged by the article. Yet any lawsuit or potential lawsuit is a gamble on both sides and since we are seeing Casino's in a majority of States my leaning is again to be proactive in forming legislation to protect residents instead of a wait and see approach.
May I point out that the wait and see has already burned Massachusetts in the last 20 years and we still are paying for that error in judgemant. Under the Dukakis administration we objected to the order to clean up Boston Harbor we instead went the court route and lost. When the original order came down from the federal district court there was a federal program to subsidize construction of treatment plants and from the articles I have we potentially would have received $.40 for every dollar for the MWRA construction of deer Island waste treatment. Instead after the final ruling the program had ended and we got ZERO in matching funds to help hold down the cost to the rate payers. My further belief and experience with these costs in Eastern MAssachusetts was a huge mistake because of the tremedous cost Home owners/families have had to pay for the current system. Imagine how much capital would have been saved by the average family and the resulting spending power if the average home owner/ family was seeing an overall reduction of say 20% of their sewer charge for the last 10 years. Potentially thousands of dollars. How would that weigh in on the cost of living and the preservation of the buying power of this majority group. It certainly would be a substantial amount of money to my family. So again I would rather air on the side of Proactive legislation not an attempt at reactive which leaves little or nothing and to make sure we dedicate sufficient revenue money to the social programs that would deal with the social problems we all know are out there, as a result of the gaming industry. Because currently we have no such dedcicated stream from any of the gaming we currently have in Massachusetts.

Below is just some key peices of evidents to substantiate my claims
"The "Bingo Licensing Law"[34] legalized charitable bingo pursuant to the 1957
constitutional exception.[35] In 1976, enabling legislation for "Games of Chance" was passed,
providing the basis for the operation of so-called "Las Vegas Nights."[36]
In 2002, the level of charitable gambling in New York State was approximately $461
million.[37] More significantly, the charitable gambling exception and enabling legislation have
been the means by which the federal Indian Gaming Regulatory Act has allowed Indian casino
gambling to be introduced into New York State[38] (see Part IV)."

Massachusetts even allows Bazaar gaming which is eveything but Slots in it's law

here is the link to that
http://www.masslottery.com/Bingo/Bingo.htm Mass Law on Bingos and Vagas Nights

IGRA requires a compact between a tribe and the state before the tribe will be permitted
to conduct so-called "Class III" gambling, which includes Las Vegas-style casino gambling.[122]
When a tribe requests that a compact be negotiated, a state is required to do so "in good faith."
The compact should resolve such matters as the applicability of state laws at the casinos; state
taxation of gambling revenues; remedies for breach of contract; and "any other subjects that are
directly related to the operation of gambling activities." IGRA authorizes compacts only in
"state[s] that permit such gambling for any purpose by any person, organization, or entity."[123]
So I would suggest that many legal minds certainly with more experience then my self and the others I have talked with about this aspect have determined that it is not inevitable but Highly probable. Now if we want to gamble it doesn't happen go right ahead but if we get a Federal mandate what then? We're stuck with a problem and no money to fix it

May I also offer one added comment I would ask Representative Boseley how effective the 80 Million dollars the legislature authorized and spent on trying to preserve manufacturing jobs here in Massachusetts has been thus far. My information shows it as a nearly total failure since the program we have see these jobs leave at a higher rate then before and since the legislation we have lost close to if not more then 50% of the jobs we had back in the early 90's. That kind of track record of legislation used to try to protect jobs in Massachusetts suggest that is not a wise expenditure so why not try the reverse and create new jobs that our workforce can migrate into easily maybe we would stop the migration of residents out of the state.
Thank You for your consideration
and as usual these are just my opinions.

Mark Belanger said...

Mr. Quinn,

There is significant doubt that the state can be compelled to enter into a class three compact if they do not wish to. The final outcome of the Kickapoo case in Texas will have much to say about that. They've been trying to force the state into a class three compact for 12 years.

Let's take the case of class 2 - the argument that the tribe can do class 2 no matter what. Technically that is true. In reality the agreement signed with Middleboro requires them to do some $220M in infrastructure upgrades plus pay Middleboro $7-9M. There is no ROI. Without the infrastructure upgrades there is no way to site a casino. The state has significant leverage to prevent the upgrade of a state highway(Rt44) if so inclined - and I'm quite sure they would be so inclined.

Even under current law, if we agree to a compact we do not have to give them class 3 slots. If we do not give them class 3 slots, there is no ROI to build a casino based on the reasons already given. They just can't compete with real casinos without class 3 slots. No way. No how.

Furthermore - the current case of Carcieri v Kempthorne might very well prevent the land from getting into trust at all. In fact, at this point, there is that they will get the Middleboro land put into trust at all.

So all argument that the tribal casino is inevitable is based on theory not reality. Due to the realities of land into trust, the requirements of the Middleboro/Mashpee IGA, and the realities of competing with RI/CT casinos, the tribe will never build a casino unless we give them class three slots. Never

No slots = No ROI = No casino.

End of story.

Anonymous said...

approved casinos on well-established reservations.

This one sentence is whats going to put a Casino in Middleboro.

The Mashpee have no reservation.

Edward R. Quinn said...

Well I was aware of the kickapoo case and had read it. I also did more research on the facts of this case and found a discrepancy with the facts of the challenge that gravely differs from the facts in Massachusetts. This is the laws currently on the books in Texas and in Massachusetts are significantly different.

Texas does not have a Bazaar/Casino Night provision in their Bingo statutes

http://www.gambling-law-us.com/Charitable-Gaming/Texas/texas-bingo.htm

also as a result of a legislative inquiry in Texas regarding the state expansion of VLT’s to Tracks They Texas AG in his response wrote

Class III gaming includes all other forms of gaming, see id. 5 2703(g), in particular, the
“lucrative casino-style games such as blackjack, slot machines, roulette, and baccarat.” Ysletu del
&o-Pueblo v. Texas, 36 F.3d 1325,133l (5th Cir. 1994), cert. denied, 514 U.S. 1016 (1995). Class
IIl gaming thus includes VLTs. See 25 U.S.C. 5 2710(d)(l)(A) (2000). A tribe may engage in Class
III gaming if the state in which it is located “permits such gaming for any purpose by any person,
organization, or entity.” Id. 5 2710(d)(l)(B). Class III gaming must also be authorized by tribal
ordinance and must be “conducted in conformance with a Tribal-State compact entered into by
the Indian tribe and the State under paragraph (3) that is in effect.” Id. § 2710(d)(l)(C); see id.
5 2710(d)(3) (negotiation and terms oftribal-state compact). The compact must be submitted to the
Secretary of the Interior, who has 45 days in which to (1) approve the compact, (2) disapprove the
compact, or (3) take no action, in which case the compact is deemed approved, but only to the extent
it is consistent with the provisions of IGRA. See id. 5 2710(d)(8).

we do here in Massachusetts and was the on point issue decided in the 1993 case that allowed the Conn Casino's which is why Texas has refused to enter into an agreement on a Class III license. Massachusetts will not have this same legal protection as Texas as we have language-allowing groups to hold Casino Nights this has also been the case in NY.

Yes I know this is also in the process of being challenged. Once again I think with out a definitive decision we here again risk losing all since a Supreme Court ruling for the tribe in Texas would certainly clear the way for any Tribe to obtain a Class III license. If I were a Wampanoag it may be worth waiting and not bidding in a license here. If the ruling goes their way their would be less we could argue against giving them.

Now you raise the point of ROI here again based on past practice in Massachusetts (past always seems to haunt us here) Massachusetts has not with held infrastructure improvements for a site. Most recently the expansion of RTE 1 in Foxboro for the New England Patriots Stadium and now soon to open super mall is a factually on point. Certainly we can weigh into court and battle it out maybe 4-5 + years to resolve it and delay the Casino’s longer.

Yet here again I will suggest that my support of the issue is to be proactive with Legislation not a Blank Check but carefully debated and thought through to get the best deal for the People of Massachusetts.

I also pointed out in my prior response that the Boston Globe story on the two separate parcels being recognized may be the best hope to block it in Middleboro but lost in that whole discussion was the possibility that they still could apply for a Casino on the land they currently hold in Mashpee it is big enough to support a Casino build out the real question are the other issues of the success of such an endeavor on the Cape, as a result of the bottle necks of crossing the canal this may be the least palatable to all parties involved.

Although I would agree that the facts you present are interesting I do not see that they rise to the same level of the issues in dispute as the ones I have based my opinion that they are not inevitable in the since that there is a 100% probability they will be here but I would suggest that the scales are not tipped in our favor and thus our ability to reject them out of hand.

What you risk by such a broad interpretation of the relevent facts is another fiasco scenario similar to the MWRA/Boston Harbor legal opinion ordering the clean up of Boston Harbor and the cration of the MWRA in the 1980’s which we the working families are paying for every day. Certainly the clean up is a noble cause but, Oen that is directly impacting the high cost of living here in Eastern Massachusetts and one that you can point to as another factor that is driving population out of the state.

Mark Belanger said...

We'll have to agree to disagree here - we are miles apart on the likelihood of a casino.

I think you are missing the crux of the Kickapoo case. When Texas refused to negotiate for a class three license, the tribe appealed to the DOI. The DOI returned a decision that said the "States definition of a lottery is broad enough to include traditional casino-style games, except slot machines."

Texas appealed and so far the courts have ruled that it is an infringement on state sovereignty to force the state to negotiate a compact. This business about bingo rules is not relevent - the issue is "Can the state be compelled to enter into a class three compact?"

And as for Connecticut - they entered into a class three compact with NO slots. This was later amended by Governor Weicker over the objections of the legislature.

You'll have to concede that slots make up 70-75% of a casino's revenue. Even if things go horribly wrong(like CT) and they get class 3(doubtful) they will still be required to enter into some sort of agreement to get slots.

It's all about the slots and they won't get them if we don't give them away.

Since day one, there has been the threat that we had better make a deal or else we'll get nothing. This just isn't the case. In any event, until the land is accepted into trust - which is a doubtful proposition - there is no need to worry about the Indian casino - unless of course you're from Middelboro like I am.

Dan - I am right on this one. If we fight the Mashpee at every turn - there will be no casino.

- Oppose land into trust
- Fight ANY class three gaming
- Flat out REFUSE to give up class 3 slots

What would happen if we just outlawed ALL class three games right now? Wouldn't that kill their prospects to get any class 3 at all?

I stand quite firmly by my assertion which is backed up by reality - that there will be no casino here if we don't give up the slots.

And let me pop that Seminole bubble before someone even tries to blow it up. The Seminole had NO competition and grew their business gradually with things like tax-free tobacco shops. That's not going to happen here.

carverchick said...

Bumpkin, you said: the issue is "Can the state be compelled to enter into a class three compact?"

You are so correct yet again! The bottom line is the Tribe cannot conduct class III gaming without a State compact....IGRA and Congress are quite specific about that and the Kickapooo case decision means that States are NOT required to have an agreement with the Tribe, and the Tribe cannot force/sue the State into a compact. Since the State is not required to agree to a compact with the Tribe, no compact means no class III gambling....at all.

You also said: And let me pop that Seminole bubble before someone even tries to blow it up. The Seminole had NO competition and grew their business gradually with things like tax-free tobacco shops. That's not going to happen here.

So correct again! If there had been a class III facility within a 2 hour driving distance from the Seminole, their class II would have most certainly failed, and they certainly never would have opened a class II facility if there was a Foxwoods and Mohegan Sun type of facility close by. The Seminole "success" with class II is irrelevant for all the reasons you listed.

Dan -- thank you for your support! Please, do not allow slots in MA. If we allow slots at the racetracks, the Tribe will build a class III facility the likes of Mohegan Sun if the land goes in trust. If they can build a class III casino, all the racetracks in this State are doomed to fail - no one wins except the Tribe's casino investors. I can understand why the tracks want slots, but I don't think they truely understand the consequences....

Anonymous said...

Kolchak- the Casino Stalker

Anonymous said...

Captain Louis Renault:: I'm shocked-- shocked to find gambling going on in here!!!

Croupier: Here are you winnings sir

Renault: Oh thank you very much